Defying Society with Sakis Tolis of Rotting Christ
"I want to provide something new, something which is still against the system, but in a more mature way."
“Music shouldn't be “just” music; it should defy the rules of society.”
J: Heresy has played a pretty significant role in the music of Rotting Christ. It's all connected to Non Serviam, Do as Thou Wilt, etc. What generated this idea, from the very beginning of the band, of having this heretical, rebellious position as a band?
Sakis: In my opinion, that's the spirit of metal, especially black metal. It's not a genre that just goes with the flow. When we started in the 80s and 90s, black metal was quite erratic. We were very erratic too. Back in the 90s we had big problems with the government and stuff like that. We still have them sometimes.
Music shouldn't be “just” music. It should defy the rules of society. I'm very proud of the fact that my music can sometimes create those changes
J: Back in the day, Dead, the singer of Mayhem, would complain about how thrash metal and death metal had become just a mainstream thing, and didn't pack the punch they were supposed to. They didn't offend or scare people anymore.
Sakis: Of course, but you have to be able to adapt to change. For example, our last album is not just about saying "fuck religion" or "fuck you" or whatever, because nobody cares about that nowadays.
J: I think that's precisely how you notice the maturity of a writer. Because when I was a kid I wanted...:
Sakis: ...To destroy everything, yes, but the world doesn't change that way. It's a good thing to think that way when you're a kid, because you must live through your own age; but, on the other hand, I'm 48 now. I don't think that world can change. But, of course, some people can change. But very few people... it's very rare.
J: On that note, I feel that Rotting Christ did, in a way, move away from anti Christianity, into more anti-religion, anti-dogmatism and anti authoritarianism.
Sakis: Yes; that's exactly what we're doing at the moment.
J: And this spirit of rebellion and heresy, the idea of Non Serviam... is that something you encounter among musicians and songwriters? Because, to an extent, I think we now have more of an appearance of black metal, or an appearance of rebellion, but completely castrated. There isn't a real opposition to the system.
Sakis: I totally agree with you, but this is the new generation. This is the age we are living in, especially for the last decade with the Internet, social media, and all of that. People are not against anything, but they say everything. They can pretend to be rebels. But then nobody cares.
J: Where do you still encounter some problems with Rotting Christ,?
Sakis: In territories where freedom of speech is not respected. It happened in South Africa, it happened in Georgia, where we spent a day in prison. Some shows have been cancelled... even in the US! But we keep going, because that's the spirit we started with.
We are in Holland, and this is a very open-minded country. But if you go to the East, or to the South, people don't have so much openness. So when we go to Islamic countries we have problems there, but we're still going. We take the risk, and we have always done that. We've played all around the world. We just came back from Russia, where we were not allowed to play under our real name, so we played as "Non Serviam"... things like that are going to happen. But this is the world.
I don't have a problem with people believing in other things, but when it's organized religion... I don't like it.
J: I mean, theocratic fascism arises in any kind of country.
Sakis: Yes, there is a lot of fascism nowadays. Worldwide. It's quite scary.
J: This brings me back to Heretics, because you even open the album with a quote from the Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky—
Sakis: Yes, we borrowed words, big words, from people who were heretics in their time.
J: What attracted you to the works that you referenced?
Sakis: Their philosophy. It's the philosophy that I have in my soul... and although I write the music, but the songs also make sense. It's not just about growling or pretending that I'm the devil, or the most evil guy. I mean, I support what kids are doing now, doing their own thing but, in my case, after 30 years in the scene, I want to provide something new, something which is still against the system, but in a more mature way.
J: I've read that before you release every album, you're a bit insecure because you don't how people will react.
Sakis: I'm always insecure! That's my problem.
J: Does it increase when you try to do "new things", as you did in AEALO?
Sakis: Yes. Absolutely.
J: Because black metal, despite the love for chaos and everything, it's also a very "formalistic" genre. People want you to stick to a formula, or you're not TRVE.
Sakis: We don't like labels. When you come to the show, you'll see many people, kids, newcomers to the scene. They are not that extremist, or they that much into this dogma. They can listen, for instance, to Rotting Christ and also to softer things. Maybe this new generation is more open-minded.
J: On the topic of seeing younger kids enjoying your music. How do you feel seeing that your work connects with people who weren't even alive when you first created the band?
Sakis: It's fantastic!
J: I can imagine! And how about the fact that this music isn't SO underground anymore? I've seen black metal musicians who kind of yearn for being "underground" again.
Sakis: I mean, things have changed. Even if you pretend that you are very underground, an elite... If you do a tour like this, you are not.
J: In your music you often sing in many languages. Russian, German, Greek, English, Latin---
Sakis: I like to discover languages, history, or ancient history. There are a lot of hidden messages there. If you don't know your history, you don't respect your history, you won't respect your present or your future. I like to read a lot about history, about ancient civilizations, and that gives me ideas that help me with my life nowadays,
J: You seem to have a very wide range of sources for your lyrics.
Sakis: I'm that kind of person. I'm the only composer and, unfortunately, I torture myself trying to find the truth or whatever is close to it. But Maybe there are no truths.
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